Interview with Pavel
Question: So, good afternoon, everyone. Today I will speak completely in Russian.
This video is intended for the Slavyangrad channel, but I will be glad if this video is also reposted on other Russian-speaking channels, because I think this is a very important topic on which I would like to talk today with our guest Pavel.
Thank you very much, Pavel for coming to us.
This topic is generally the topic of the Afghan war, the Soviet-Afghan war.
Why do I think this topic is very important? Well, first of all, this is a personal topic for me.
My father participated, yes, he was a participant in military actions.
He never told anything, only once he showed me a photo on which he was and his four comrades,
and said that he was the only one who remained alive from them.
In general, nothing else on the topic and it was not possible to find out from him anything else.
And memory, in general, it is erased, memory fades away, people pretend that now, it is good that they remembered about the Great Patriotic War. It is now on the brink of an information wave, but the Afghan conflict was undeservedly forgotten, and I think it is necessary to remind about it, because it is very important.
And I remembered just such an episode, nine years ago I posted a video on the anniversary of the entry
of the Soviet troops to Afghanistan and I had some kind of rather stupid note that here is a herd war,
I do not understand what it was for, and a person came to me in the comments, who made me think, he said, you know, your father was there so that his daughter did not sit on a cheap Afghan heroine.
It was such a serious reason, in general, it made me completely reconsider my attitude to this conflict.
Let's say, to the Afghan conflict my attitude was always unambiguous - I considered him [my father] a hero, and now I consider him a hero, and therefore I would like to pay tribute to him and to everyone who was there, and to everyone who won these years of peaceful life.
Thank you very much, and therefore today we are making such a video.
Thank you, and thank you very much to Seryoga. Seryoga knows that I am talking about him, that he gave me contact, and this video happened, this interview.
And now I would like to move on to the questions, I will try to ask less and listen more, but we will go to the questions after all.
Pavel, tell me, how did you get there to Afghanistan?
Was this a voluntary wish or not voluntary?
Well, apart from the oath, what was your motivation when you went there?
Hello. I also send a greeting to Seryoga. Hello to all of our viewers.
Answer: My name is Pavel, I live in the city of Moscow, in Russia.
No, I did not take part in Afghanistan conflict from the very beginning, because the events began in Afghanistan in December of 1979, as everyone knows.
At that time I was still studying at school.
How did I get to Afghanistan? Well, since I was about 9 years old I was doing sports, there is such a beautiful sport as handball, where I was quite successful.
Well, it so happened that after school, when I was 17, I entered the Moscow Aviation Institute.
And to make it clear, at that time in the Soviet Union, it was a student sport [handball], as in the USA basketball, for example.
So, I entered the Moscow Aviation Institute for the first year, and I was offered to play there, for their team.
But it so happened that in the end nothing worked out.
I was taken to the army. What I must go to the army, I learned first from Mr. Gorbachev, People of my year of birth, I was born in 1969, there was a decree in connection with the demographic situation in the Soviet Union. I was called after the first year [of studies], as the students too had to serve in the army.
So, it didn't work out [with handbol], and after the first year
I was forced to go to the army. I wasn't forced, to put it clear, I was ready for it, all my friends served, why wouldn't I serve too?
At that time, it was believed that if a young person of 20+ y.o., if he didn't serve in the army, something was wrong with him, and he was sick. Of course, there were such cases when people tried to avoid draft, but it was very rare.
It isn’t some kind of fiction; it was that way.
When I got to Afghanistan, it so happened that in February 1987, when I was called to the army for the medical commission, we were offered – there were five of us, students – we were offered such a dilemma. Either, guys, you're going to serve in the Navy for three years,
or you're going from DOSAAF to jump with a parachute, they'll take you there for two weeks, they'll teach you there, they'll pay you Soviet money, we were paid about ten rubles each.
It's a lot of money for boys of that age, and then you're going to serve in the Navy for three years.
Of course, there were no fools, why three if you can do two?
So, we all went there. We jumped with a parachute, there was an airfield in the Moscow region called Volosov, in the south, between Podolsk and Serpukhov, if I'm not mistaken.
There we spent two wonderful weeks. In barracks, canned meat under the beds in backpacks, early runs, everything. And the last two days we had jumps.
We performed three jumps with a parachute, we were given badges that we were cool guys, and ten rubles.
We went back by train. We didn't wait for the bus, while everyone was getting ready, but to be the first we went by train.
We went to all different regions in Moscow and said goodbye with words like: “see you in Kabul”.
To make it clear, I didn't know any other city in Afghanistan.
There is Kabul, the capital, yes, we learned it in school, that Afghanistan is a friendly country,
Kabul is it’s capital, so, see you in Kabul.
So, I finished my year one in University, I was given an opportunity to pass the exams.
I was drafted on the 8th of July, in 1987, quite late, to make it clear, usually they draft in May - June, until the middle of June, literally, and then on the 8th of July.
So, I was called on the 8th of July, on the 10th I already was in a famous town in Lithuania, there is a railway station Gaidziunai and there was a big VDV course, where we were all together, there were 26 of us, as I remember, we were all in one training platoon, it was a sergeant platoon, we were prepared specifically to go to Afghanistan, that is, we knew from the very beginning.
How voluntary it was, I don't know, maybe I'll surprise someone, maybe I'll be considered some kind of an idiot, but for me there was no question like, can I go there or can't I go?
Can I not to go there? We were raised differently than today's people, today's schoolchildren, young people. It was just given to me. The party, the state, the people, it doesn't matter, they said, like, man, you have to go, the guy just and went.
There was no need for me to doubt somewhere, but when my mother found out, she cried, she tried, so that it was clear, my mother was working at one of the “post boxes” and she had a good connection with the military, there was a military reception, she tried in some way to trade that I don’t go there,
I just said, no, mom, it won't happen, because, well, how is it, that is, it turns out that you will buy me out now, that is, what am I, a mom’s son?
Like that, yes, there may be some other arguments, there were, of course, but the main thing is this, yes, that is, what is it, how is it, my mother will go to pay for me to stay.
Then there were trainings, 4 months of trainings, so, I, in these 4 months, to say something has changed in me is to say nothing. Everything has changed dramatically, that is, from a simple person, who, well, as it were, gave the leading role to the sport, I became just a superman at that time, it seemed to me, we were taught that we were in charge of any task, well, it seemed to us, yes, we come and we can do anything.
Our officers taught us. By the way, thank you very much, especially to Major Aliyev, an excellent person, who taught us tactics, let's say, in combat actions and other specifics, he was a great man, Major Aliyev, he was a great, just a great bow to him, because, in particular, thanks to the knowledge that he laid in us, well, we survived, yes, in many situations, it saved us..
And in general, voluntarily or not voluntarily, well, I'll say so, in 4 months of training, we were lined up 3 times, and we were asked: ”guys, you may go to another unit, you perfectly serve the rest of your service in the Union, that's it, no one will tell you anything, no one will throw a stone in your back, this is your decision”, out of us, 26 people, one came out, one came out at the very beginning, but it was possible to understand him actually, firstly, he had a newborn child, secondly, old parents, at that time they were already old, they were up to 70, and, as it were, well, just, well, I won't even call his last name.
So then one came out, yes, he came out, everything was fine, we forgave him, it was his decision, the rest was our decision,
Q: that is, it was a question of honor, as I understand it,
A: it was a question of both honor and conscience,
I understand that now for many the concept of conscience is something like that, some kind of relic, I don't know, atavism; well, we had conscience, because if it's not you, then someone else, you see, that's the point, and if someone else goes, then, in principle, why, is he better than me or worse than me?
That's it, was at this level, well, and moreover, yes, of course, a certain thing, yes, you said it right, except for the oath, what else except the oath?
The oath is also not an empty call, that is, if you look even at the current oath, compare the current oath with that one, you will understand the difference, because there everything is really, there are so many necessary words, selected, they are not like now : “I will just serve here a little bit, like, I will come back”, we went to serve in the army, the people, first of all, there it was said to serve the Soviet people, here, at that point, and only then, the government, and so on. But primarily the people, well, that's how it is.
I understand, you know, this is very important, I think, for the youth, I hope that the younger people will also watch this and understand in general, this is really important, because these are such words, I think, this is very correct, it is right into soul,
I don't know how, but for me it's just, I understand, and what is interesting to me, when I asked Sergei what he can tell, he said, well, we were just brought, and then it all started, that is, he said everything by not saying anything, but he said that Pavel would tell much better, so I wanted to know what the feelings were, when you were brought there, how did the meeting with this country happen, that is, not like you went somewhere on vacation, or somewhere else, how did it all look like, what were the feelings in general?
We came, well, from those 25 people who, as we were, who completed, let's say, education in training camp, yes, military education, I mean. We were all scattered by three, by two people, in absolutely different dislocation zones, yes, more precisely, places of dislocation. We were brought five people, five to Herat [this is a city in the northwest of Afghanistan, near Turkmenistan], where two, immediately two of them were taken from us.
We got there from the city of Masary, by plane, usually by plane, yes, but there was a nuance, how this plane landed, very interesting, here, I flew a little before the army, just a couple of times, but the fact a civilian plane can do that such things I saw for the first time, that is, the so-called Afghan loop, in short, this Afghan dive, this is how it is called, in my opinion, that is, when it, flying almost already, at a high altitude, to the glissade. And suddenly it was going down, that is, what is the point, not smoothly, but sharply, so that immediately, well, how would you sit for a minimum time.
Well, then they explained to us why this was done, in order to, respectively, this plane, less likely to be hit, yes, from all sorts of MANPADS and so on, here, from the fact that the Afghan dive, yes, the first impression. Well, let's start with the fact that it was, in the evening, well, that is, not yet twilight, as it were, but closer to the evening, here, nothing so special, I simply did not notice, yes, that is, we flew to an ordinary airfield, there was no such thing, as, for example, in the “ninth company” [movie], they showed there, something exploded somewhere, the only thing, finally,
I was very much caught, as it were, in my soul, by the moment, it was also shown in the ninth company, something hit me here, this is the moment when the arriving troops, came out of the plane, and there, here, the array of departing demobilized here, this is not to be transmitted, that moment, it was all, like, how they yelled at us, there, “salagy [rookies] hang yourselves”, “welcome to hell”, it, well, was perceived by us like something scary, and at the same time, you understand that this is, well, we were like it such a good joke, yes, well, we perceived it that way. Here, at that time, we did not know what it was, we felt like - give us a machine gun, we will now go where we need to go and complete the things we need to complete and everything will be fine.
Here, that is, we flew in like this, well, literally, and then of course, then we, the three of us moved to Kandahar with a convoy, or rather, to under Kandahar, also at the airfield, we were based, the Ariana airfield, it even has the same name, this is the Kandahar airfield,
Well, of course, not from the first days, but somewhere after literally a month, or, probably three weeks, yes, somewhere closer to the middle of November, that is, here I am for the first time already took part in hostilities as part of our detachment, that is, we came out to a certain position, to fulfill a certain task,
And in general, I participated in such a short fight. Impressions… but impressions, I don't know, I can't explain it all in words, it's, I was told that after the first fight people started having kind of sudden calls to vomit, something else. I don't know how it all happened, for me it's like, well, as if in some kind of movie, one episode was cut out and it was accelerated, it's all was fast, it's all something incomprehensible. There was no time to think on it, it was like someone was shooting at someone, yes, I realized that I kind of hit somebody, possibly, something like that. And then, yes, everything is over - let's collect the weapons, let's go, that's it.
This is my first impression, about what happened next, when I became more, not to say critical, but more, well, yes, critical, yes, more critical to this, yes, I began to understand what we are doing here, how we are doing here, for what, not even for what, why is everything exactly as it is.
Let's say, if we take attitude to what we did, yes, I, well, already after the army, yes, I heard from some people, as it were, “you killed people, you are a murderer”, well, I don't know how much it can be said, if we didn't kill, we would have been killed, sorry, come on, who is the first, here…
I love to repeat that humanity, in general, we live at war, in general, and all our history is the history of war, so we can dream about peace and tell how wonderful it is to live in peace, but we still live as we live, probably, everything will change as it is, and therefore, this is part of life.
Yes, logically, yes. Very such a breakthrough moment was probably somewhere in winter, in my opinion, it was the beginning of February already, in 1988. We had a certain task in the mountains, we climbed about 1,000-1,500 meters. There were such mountain kishlaks [villages], and we all, how many of us were there, there were 15 people, we all saw two bodies in our singlets, with eyes gouged out, with stomachs ripped open. They were hanging on, well, in Russian, on the fence… They had already dried out... In general, well, here is the attitude to us, and when you see it, you understand that, well, you start to consider these people a little not for people, for non-people… Well, this is what concerns the attitude…
Q: Because now, you know, they are telling that, well, they treat us so well, they treat us with respect…
A: In fact, yes, the attitude to us is much better than, let's say, to the same Americans. I don't know why, just so. I personally heard it myself they say, that you - Russians, you really fight like normal people, that is, well, you are warriors and fight like warriors, like men.
Americans you know how, Americans, there is aviation, there is artillery, and only then they will go, so to speak, with own legs.
But we all, as it were, coped with most of the legs, with our hands and brains. There were cases,
I personally did not participate in this, but I know these people and their commanders, I know them very well. It so happened that they were a little behind in their detachment and were forced to fight – five privates, well, so about against the caravan, which needed to go along a certain route, to a certain place.
They didn't let them do it, they stood to the end of their, not their strength, but their fighting power [ammunition], and when, let's say, the enemy realized that the guys had run out of everything, they slowly surrounded they guys, and the field commander, further from the words [of participant], just came, looked at them, they were sitting, all five together, and they were holding two grenades. Well, yes, there is such a thing, inseparable grenade, which is always with you, the last argument, so-called..
And what did he do, this field commander - he said: “guys, I would like my sons to be like you, go with God, we will not touch you” - and it was after they had been fighting for more than a day with this field commander.
Q: It is impressive, of course, well, because they saw worthy opponents in you, as it were, real warriors, that's why it's all like that.
Because I also remember, well, I already talked to a friend, he was a member of the NATO mission, but he is from Latvia himself, and he said that even to them, well, to them as Latvians, the attitude was much better than to those from Western Europe. He said that Afghans saw people in them, and the Germans, for example, they simply did not want to perceive.
It is impressive, of course, because such details father never told me about this but it is so important.
I think, that these words must have been said.
And here is another question, of course, very difficult, but it's also very important.
Now in our time people consider, especially civilians, that death does not exist, that is, such a attitude
is very strange, as if it all happens somewhere, it is not clear with whom, and even when they leave life, very sick, very old people, people be like “what a nightmare, he could still have lived, he was only 85” and so on…
But at war, as I understand it, everything is completely different, and how is it perceived there?
Did you have to lose someone from your friends?
How is it? What is the attitude there?
Well, first of all, it seems to me that this is just a banal truth, that, first of all, is it scary?
Is it not scary only for a fool. Of course, yes,
When you spend a lot of time in all this, you gain a certain amount of experience, something like that, that is, a certain specificity, the fear, of course subsides, but it never goes away completely.
But you cannot say that it goes away forever, of course, fear, not only does it exist, it is also needed, because, as a rule, those who are not afraid, they are no longer with us. Because fear creates what we call the instinct of self-preservation, I just think so.
Or not so, are you afraid of death?
Yes, you are afraid, but not in relation to yourself, like this, it is much scarier - the death of a close one, because it is losing the person who was on the left or on the right, then you completely perceive what death is.
In relation to yourself, a little different feeling, it is scarier to be without hands and without legs, that is, you perceive it somehow – if they kill me, damn it, I don’t care. The main thing is not to remain a cripple. Or loose the mind.
Q: Did you lose close associates?
Very close yes, but the three of us who were from the beginning to end together, including the training camp, we are all alive, and Arkasha from Astana, greeting to him, if he watches and, that is Seryoga is also alive with us.
And the third, my pal, my comrade, but he asked me not to name him, for some reason, we are all alive.
And in general, yes, the guys perished, the guys are dead and not very close, and there were neighbors, and they are dead because of stupidity, and because of some kind of indifference.
They committed extraordinary, let's say, actions, extraordinary in negative sense, not in positive, and that became their last in their lives.
And I repeat, only an idiot is not afraid of death, of pain, and so on.
Q: I see, this is definitely a sign of a healthy psyche, that a person experiences a certain level, it helps us to learn as well.
And the question is also probably difficult, well, as for many who have gone through perestroika and the 90s are “wonderful” years. But as much as I, my knowledge about the topic allows to judge that after all, in the military plan, the victory in Afghanistan was for the Soviet Union, how do you think, is it so?
A: Well, very well said by the commander of the army Gromov, yes, he had the right words, in fact, that, in general, the contingent of the Soviet troops did everything they want in Afghanistan, and did the tasks, completed the tasks that had to be done.
We calmly came in, and we left quite calmly, we left a bunch of different kinds of objects both military and civil, just hundreds. That are schools, this is a beautiful, as far as I know, university in Kabul, and even under Kandahar we have been based, there is a whole, such a small quarter, of five-story Soviet houses, we left all this, what is happening now, look, we turned it, and we left all this to them.
I, for example, recently I saw a photo of the Kabul airport, there are two airplanes, and I think it's 80, I don't remember what year, well, even before our departure from there, and it was also said, well, in addition to the photos, that then in 2001 the Americans blew up this airport together with the liners that were there, well, that is, such barbarism…
Well, I didn't hear that, maybe it was like that, I was interested in fate, but not so deeply.
I know that at least when we left, there was a lot of military equipment, and military equipment, and a part of that, let's say, could be transferred to civilian, that is, these trucks, military vehicles, all kinds of Urals, Kamaz, fuel trucks, Mazs, well, in general, there was a whole bunch of equipment left.
It cannot be said that we lost this war.
We, in general, if you go from the very beginning, we did not go to war at all, that is, we did not carry out such combat actions. There were certain tasks, to maintain order in the country, there was help from the government on, let's say, the preservation of power in the regions.
Each location of each division had its own zone of responsibility, where we perfectly, in general, kept all this under control.
The trucks were going well, they were shelled, of course, destroyed to some extent, but at least most of the trucks reached the people of this country.
Aid was distributed, we helped, building went on, and so on.
Well, we also left, we kept our heads up, but I think that yes, it can be considered as betrayal, probably, after all.
Because, first of all, they brought us to the end, left a bunch of friends there, friends, I mean, among the Afghans, too, friends, yes.
Well, authorities, that is, at the level of authorities, the same Najibullah, who was already at the very end, we, in fact, betrayed his government, we, I mean Russia.
Boris Nikolaevich Yeltsin decided to do this later, that is, in general, to stop the help at all.
Gorbachev began, Yeltsin ended, well, in principle, as with the Union,
Gorbachev began to destroy, Yeltsin, along with two more alcoholics, ended.
Q: I understood that it was betrayal from the higher leadership, but as it turned out, not only our interests, but also the interests of the country that was an ally.
Q: And if it were possible to talk to someone from Shuravi, as they are called, would you find words, what to tell them or would you want some kind of communication, I don't know, would it be interesting?
A: Who do you mean by Shuravi?
Q: Well, as I understand it, opponents were called that.
Yes, they called us, I just didn't understand.
“Shura” in the Dari language is Soviet [advice], Shura.
And Shuravi is Soviet. Ah, that is, Shuravi is Soviet,
Q: I understand, I just didn't understand that, I heard the word, but ...
A: They called us that, Shuravi.
I understand the essence of the question. I would like to talk to many, but due to some changes, due to political changes, I don't think that someone is probably alive, there is no one, but I would like to talk, I would like to invite, we had a great person, Aziz Dukan, Dukan is a store [store keeper], that is, a small storage store, we ran there, exchanged the stew, beef stew for cigarettes, for milk, for vodka, we exchanged the stew.
Once, there with one young soldier who went with me I told him, take the stew, and he took pork stew, we came there, we had to go back and bring all this stuff back, he has to carry that.
Yes, and of course, I would like to talk to Aziz, for example, to someone else, apparently it's not fate,
I talked to a person once on Google [Google+] from Kandahar, a pilot, now I don't even remember his name, he was a pilot in our time, there were also hated Americans very much, but nonetheless, they had him as a pilot working…
Q: I understand, yes, our lives go interesting, and probably the last question to draw some kind of parallel with t day's events, because we are cannot avoid this topic, here is a question of a brotherhood,
I know that in the SMO there are both sides of the conflict, there are people who took part together on one side in Afghanistan, how in terms of brotherhood in arms this can be highlighted
That is, how did it become possible that the people who were on one side they turned out to be on different sides now. We grew up on the same textbooks, we lived in the same country
A: That's how. Well, you see how this politics interfered, right that's how people turned out to be on different sides of the barricades Afghans [Afghanistan veterans]…
Some live in Russia, some live in Ukraine, some live in the Baltics. We had a wonderful comrade from Estonia, Estonian. Well, how many families were destroyed how many families now in the midst of this conflict, just, what is called not to fall apart, but a family of relatives, in a big sense - that is, there are children, brothers, sisters there are some nephews on the other side and here is another side, but they are also all relatives and they also have misunderstanding between themselves those are called you are Moscowites, you are Khokhly that's all…
Well, I know for sure at least two people from, let's say, the inhabitants of Ukraine who fully supported this Maidan and in general then we lost, I lost contact with them because people just stopped talking to me.
let's say now they may serve on the other side, or maybe they are no longer there I don't know do you understand how how is this possible well, thank you politicians thank them initially as they say, a low bow to Mikhail Sergeevich Gorbachev, thank you very much Borya Yeltsin and other alcoholics who helped to do it all that's how we turned out and on the other hand, barricades well life goes on and if we take that the society itself during this period, it became more, let's say, focused on egoism, on some, well, principles, like to eat more, who rules the world and all that.
I'm afraid that our children and grandchildren well, they will just stop communicating with each other.
I mean, children and grandchildren in different countries. Say, in Latvia, I don't know, in Kazakhstan children will stop understanding that we were one family, everything in the world goes, if something ends, they will stop to remember. And I'm afraid, that now, people are like yes, this is another country. I don't know, for me it's the same people as we were all Soviet. I'll tell you a terrible thing in my class when I was in school here were five Armenians. Girls and boys, five or four people, I didn't even think about it, never, literally speaking, his last name ends with “Yan”, he's the same as me, I didn't see his last name he was just Kostya.
And now we're starting - you're Russian, and you're Khohol, and you're Churka..
I don't know how it happened, thanks to these people [politicians].
Q: We try. We have a channel, we are more oriented to the English-speaking audience, but we try to enhance this understanding between people, so that it gets better
I think we are all people and we all live the Earth is the only place of our life
I'd like us to learn to understand each other and we communicate in many different languages but we have subtitles and translators, so it seems to me, it's a sin not to use it.
And we need this dialogue between people from different countries and maybe then our children and grandchildren will have a future.
A: Yes, I think, yes, of course.
Q: So we'll probably finish then
Thank you very much for coming it was very important for me to hear it all. And I recommend to those who read in Russian - Pavel has a book, I will definitely give a link to the resource, I read it myself a bit, I liked it. I think I even published something from it. Or not, but I will definitely post it again. And I advise you to read too.
And this story I forgot, unfortunately what it's called; You’re the hero of this story, where the huy jumped with parachute, I found out that it was written about yourself. It was autobiographical. This is somehow the first story I clicked on when I went to the site and when you began to tell your story, I realized that it was about you.
So it was very pleasant, thank you very much and thank you to the listeners
I hope you were as interested as I was and see you soon.
A: Thank you too. I thank you for giving me the opportunity to say this and special thanks to you for you and your channel and your channel does all this we have to be together anyway.